Michael van Rooyen: 0:00
Today I’m sharing part two of my interview with Robert Joyce, the head of customer strategy and innovation at NBN. If you missed part one, I suggest having a listen to that. First, thinking about big kind of hairnet of fiber under the ground, which is really what you’ve achieved in building this underlying network for the country. But then I think about the impacts of low orbit satellite, which is really new. You touched on SkyMatch. It’s been around since 2016. But everyone thinks about low-orbit satellite, the Starlinks, the OneWebs, all these newer ones that are showing up, and then PrivateLT, which is very bespoke for a user. But can you just talk to me a little bit about what impacts that’s having on you guys, or is it really having a big impact on the way you operate?
Robert Joyce: 0:43
Well, I mean the LEO service. That’s the new kid on the block. Obviously it’s got some backers with deep pockets. And, don’t forget, a LEO service is global, so it’s not like our satellite service. We’ve got geostationary satellites, so they’re at 35,000 kilometers, they sit on the equator, above Australia and they have 121 spot beams and we cover Australia constantly with those two satellites. Now if we were to deploy a LEO service, it’d be great while it’s across Australia, but then 80% of the time, do we cover America or do we cover Europe?
Robert Joyce: 1:18
It’s quite complex, whereas the guys with the deep pockets, they’ve hedged their bets and they’ve provided global service and of course, their orbital altitude is much lower. So actually you can get there and back a lot faster. So the latency is a lot lower. The latency on our Geo is around about 600 milliseconds Again, laws of physics. If you think about the distance, 35,000, but that is their back, their back and their back in terms of the latency, whereas the Leo is around about 40 to 50 milliseconds. Leo is the new kid on the block. Are we going to deploy a LEO service? I don’t think so, in terms of we’re not going to build a constellation. Are we going to partner with a LEO provider Probably is the answer. You know, and it’s in the public domain now that we’re talking to the LEO providers, we’ve launched an RFI. So a request for information with these guys. Our satellites become end of life in the 2030s, so we do need to think about a replacement. Fair enough.
Michael van Rooyen: 2:12
And off the back of that, considering that your role is really head of customer strategy innovation, what strategy are you employing to ensure your customers’ needs are met, and what challenges are they throwing at you?
Robert Joyce: 2:23
So we have lots of surveys done at NBN. We survey people when we install fiber, so that’s how we know that there is a challenge in terms of where the CPU goes and the in-home Wi-Fi. But we also talk to them about the future. What do they use the internet for? And so since I came on board, I’ve put in place what we call a customer roadmap. So we look at a typical customer, whether that’s a resi customer, residential customer or a business customer and we say what do they need? What services will they need, rather than what bandwidth. We’ll come to bandwidth in a minute If we take a residential customer today. Today it’s all about Netflix.
Robert Joyce: 2:56
As I say, we’ve discovered in the last 12 months that 100 megs is now the hygiene factor. Not a lot of people believe me when I said that initially, but then I’ve shown them in the lab and they do believe me now. But beyond that, we’re beginning to see new devices like the Apple Vision Pro being able to do spatial video. We think spatial video needs a constant bit rate at the minute, by our calculation, of about 100 megabits per second. So that’s going to peak at a lot more than 100 meg. And when we move to holographic telepresence. That’s the buzzword for you, and I could sit here with vr glasses on and I would see an image of you sat there in context. And that’s quite important, because in context means that my glasses realize there’s a desk here and there’s a chair there, and so they want, they need, to project you there. It’s no good projecting you halfway, so they need to project you there. It’s no good projecting you halfway through the desk and chopping you in half, is it? So there needs to be a lot of data collection to get the context to the cloud server. That needs about 500 megabits of information on the uplink to the cloud server. The cloud server’s receiving the video from the far end and also the LiDAR data from the other end, and it’s stitching your image and my image together in context and then projecting it back, sending it back down the fiber to your VR headset or AR headset, and then you get projected and again via our calculation, we reckon that’s about 500 megabits per second.
Robert Joyce: 4:17
So we’re already seeing services that are well beyond what most people have. I mean, the average speed in Australia is 50 megabits per second on the residential Really 50 megabits. And it’s a poor 4G service. It’s a good 3G service. So you’ve got these people that spend a lot of money on 5G handsets. Go out there and experience the average on the networks. The 5G networks is around about 200 to 400 megabits per second. Then they come home and they’ve just got that one device. They’ve got 22 other connected devices and they try and shoehorn it down. A 50 meg plan, yes. And then they wonder why their internet’s crap at home? Yeah.
Robert Joyce: 4:53
And switch back to the mobile and use the mobile. So yeah, it’s an educational piece and it’s one that we’re trying to drive through. We call it the need for speed, but we need to educate people that well. The home of the future, with its 35 connected devices, needs a decent internet connection, absolutely and as you touched on.
Michael van Rooyen: 5:10
yes, you could argue that 50 meg, 100 meg is not. You consume it all the time, but when it’s important, as you said, the need to be able to use it when you need to use it and deliver the services you need to deliver is where it’s key. And then I think about the increase in demand for data and bandwidth IoT sensors, even for residential People want smart cameras being able to look at what’s happening at home, and they all like the 4K version of that, not just standard. So that’s the uplink challenge. And then I think about artificial intelligence, which is really fueled by lots of sensor data once the internet’s been absorbed.
Robert Joyce: 5:40
And on that, yeah, it talks about residential. Let’s talk about business. So exactly that we’re talking to a supermarket putting cameras all over its store which it does already but also cameras on its personnel, and, rather than have somebody sat in the back office, they’re going to stream all of that data to a cloud server and then the cloud server will monitor all the cameras and it will monitor the cameras for obviously antisocial behavior, shoplifting, but it can also see which products are taken off the shelf and then put back. You don’t see that, but from the cameras you can see that. So, rather than have teams of security guys looking at screens, you would only then have an AI looking at all of the screens and then, when there’s an event that happens, you then that triggers the feed to the actual human who would then see what needs to be done. So that needs at least per store, at least a gigabit per second in the uplink.
Michael van Rooyen: 6:31
That’s amazing and that’s probably the point that a lot of people miss is we’re used to consuming data downstream, watching a video, but the need for upstream and we talked about the VR headsets and AR and all that is it really going to change things? Which is why the NBN as you touched on the data point about 20% increase in your network overnight around COVID that was a real pivot point. Luckily NBN had been built. If it was not built, there would have been a kind of different play that we would have had to deal with right.
Robert Joyce: 6:55
Yeah, and obviously forecasted. Now it’s funny we’ve only just re-reached that 20% peak. Okay, the traffic has grown organically up to that peak and beyond now. So whilst we’ve seen a tenfold increase in the last 10 years, looking forward, if we just look at, I guess, video-based services, we think it’s probably about threefold over the next 10 years. That’s the official forecast, which makes sense because there’s only so much video we can watch. As I say, average Aussie watching five hours a day, he’s not going to switch to 10 hours a day.
Robert Joyce: 7:25
The bit rates are increasing because of the quality the 4K. More and more of us are watching 4K, so that will organically grow the data. But there’s also what we call a dotted red line Some call it Rob’s red line, but just in case I get it wrong which goes a lot steeper. And it goes a lot steeper because of AI. And it’s not so much that AI on its own will drive demand, but it’s the services that AI can enable that will drive demand. So I’ll give you an example. So nowadays when you phone the bank or you talk to the bank, it’s either a text-based chatbot, it’s a phone call. There’s companies now that are looking at putting video avatars, so it could even be a real person back office, but with a video avatar and you can talk to a video avatar in real time, obviously enabled by generative AI. You can imagine you could call your bank. There’s Brad Pitt.
Michael van Rooyen: 8:15
Hi Michael.
Robert Joyce: 8:15
Yeah, I mean, you’ve had a dodgy transaction down the shops. I’m going to fix that for you. This is now possible, and there’s companies that are betting the house on this sort of technology. And my point is there there’s 4 million interactions with chatbots or phone customer service reps every day in Australia. Imagine if 25% or 50% of those went video, then that drives demand on our network. So it’s not so much the AI itself that drives the demand, it’s the applications that are enabled by AI.
Michael van Rooyen: 8:46
And that must be an interesting part of your job is to think about that right, to lay at night awake thinking about what might be left field or right field that might come all of a sudden, that there’s a big demand on the network that we’re not expecting yet.
Robert Joyce: 8:58
We do. But the more that we get fiber in the ground, the more we know where fit for the future. At the moment, some of the CPEs that we’re putting in people’s houses, they’re good for two gigs, they’re good for 10 gigs, so it’s only a logical change then to enable higher bandwidth. The challenge probably is more so at the back end. When we pass that data off to the RSPs. Then they will need to somehow handle that traffic.
Robert Joyce: 9:20
It depends where it goes. It depends as well. Is it cached on shore or is it across a cable? Then it’s big, big peering costs. So yeah, it’s interesting and, as you say, I’ve been in this game a long time, predicting the future. I mean, I remember when I used to tell people, oh, you’ll be able to do video calls on your mobile phone, this is in like the sort of late 80s, early 90s, and people would just say, yeah, that’s never going to happen. And you know, here we are. I mean, one of the examples is music. Think about music and how we consume music. So when I grew up, it was vinyl, there were players, or we had AM, fm radios. In fact, we had AM, and then I remember getting the first stereo radio, whereas now, if I want to listen to music.
Robert Joyce: 10:03
I don’t even have to look for the track. Last night I just said to Alexa play the song that starts with loving you is the right thing to do. It’s like go your own way. Yes, and Alexa. The AI in Alexa goes away, looks at that line, finds out what song it is, finds out what song it is and within a second you know go your own ways playing. And that’s how music’s consumed.
Michael van Rooyen: 10:18
It’s absolutely amazing Thinking about that then for you laying awake night and making sure the network’s ready. You no doubt spend a lot of time collaborating with stakeholders, government agencies and industry players lots of RSPs. How do you guys collaborate to really drive innovation and the progress of what’s coming?
Robert Joyce: 10:36
So we’re certainly close to our partners and vendors. As I mentioned before, we stay close to the likes of Nokia and Ericsson. So Nokia provide our fiber fixed line, ericsson provide our 5G fixed wireless network, and these guys obviously deploy networks across the globe. So it’s in their interest to know what’s coming. So we take samples from them in terms of what they see coming down the line and, interestingly enough, ericsson produce a mobility report every 6, 12 months. That’s quite interesting, but they have a forecast of traffic growth, typically on the mobile network, but quite often they’ll have household consumption as well.
Robert Joyce: 11:10
We’re also in touch with local universities, both here in Sydney and Melbourne. We’ve got what we call our Astrid program. We’re looking at what innovations they’re seeing, not just in terms of traffic on the network, but how they can help us build the networks. We’re doing some pipe robotics with UTS. So when I say pipe robotics, I said before you know, you’ve got this duct, this small pipe that carries the copper line to your house under your garden. We might need to get a fiber down there. Now if the copper line is snapped and we can’t use the copper line to pull the fiber or we can’t, then we have they’ve come up with a pipe crawling robot that actually crawls like a worm through that pipe and pulls the fiber through to the house. So again, innovation, both on there and also from a physical point of view.
Michael van Rooyen: 11:53
Yeah, I mean, you’re in the UK or in certain Europe and I think I remember this many years ago Paris. Obviously we’ve got Paris Games coming up this year as well and they’ve gone quite large for fiber footprint. And again, you may know more about this than I would, but I do remember they talked about something similar in the sewer system, about how they use the pipes and a robot like that to crawl under the city and lay this fiber. You touched on fiber using less power, if I think about driving copper. So sustainability is a big, big topic and everyone’s talking about sustainability green. And how are you, with your team, working on sustainability practices?
Robert Joyce: 12:29
for the future and new projects that you might be rolling out. So, on the CPE side, the fiber CPE is much more power efficient. It consumes less than five watts. If we compare that to a 5G modem, you can get 5G fixed wireless from the likes of Telstra. Something like that consumes more like 35 watts. Wow, it’s a huge difference. Yeah, a huge difference. We’re certainly more efficient at the CPE. We’ve recently commissioned some solar farms as well, and our aim is to move to total sustainable power by 2025. So December 2025, we want to be powered 100% by sustainable energy. Excellent, so certainly we have some large targets, but we’re certainly on track, so we take this seriously. At the end of the day, we are a national infrastructure provider, we’re government backed, and so certainly we need to be doing our part the Australian economy in terms of moving to a more sustainable footprint.
Michael van Rooyen: 13:19
A really key, important, sustainable utility right is effectively what you are. And then, if I just pivot a little bit off the end bin and just talk about yourself a little bit, rob, as a leader in the technology and telecommunications industry, what are some of the key leadership principles that you believe are essential for driving innovation, what you live and breathe and achieving the strategic goals.
Robert Joyce: 13:38
I mean, I’ve been around the block, not just in terms of time but in terms of places. I started off in the UK and worked in the US and the Middle East and now here in Australia. So, yeah, I’ve experienced many cultures. But pretty much for me it’s all about teams will work better when they all share the vision, when they all understand the clear goals and objectives. If I’m leading the team whenever we start the year, I often get them together, say okay, let’s have a look at the big things we need to do this year. Together we’ll set those objectives. I’m not the guy that comes in and says these are the objectives, we’re just going to do this. It’s like what objectives do you think we need to do team this year? Ok, let’s get them on the board. Yeah, let’s have a discussion about them. Ok, you’re never going to go with. Let’s lock this down. It’s not going to be locked down forever. Again, I work by the 80-20 rule. If we get 80% there, let’s lock it down, let’s move forward. We can pivot if we realize there’s some tweaks to be done. And if you can do that, if you can get consensus from the get-go, then people understand their place in the team, their responsibility, their accountability, and you can move forward on that.
Robert Joyce: 14:45
I think, in terms of thinking of the future, you need to give people space. It’s very hard for a person to think about the future when they have a day job. Well, when I say day job, if I’m in charge of operating the network, well that’s a day job because I can’t take my eye off that network. I mean, we’ve seen what an outage can do to a network and a brand, so certainly that is the priority for the operations guys. A network and a brand, so certainly that is the priority for the operations guys. So you can’t have the operations guys looking at strategy. So the strategy guys, though, they can’t just sit on their hands and just look into the sky. They need to be thinking things, they need to be out there.
Robert Joyce: 15:17
So I’ve got a team that works with me, the partnership team. So they’re out there talking to the likes of Google, the likes of Apple, the likes of Netflix, trying to find out what’s happening. What do they need from us? And recently we talked to a company called Analyze AI, and they’re in the medical imaging space. What they’re doing is they’re looking at real time. You would take an MRI scan of a patient and this AI can detect 120 different types of cancer or anomalies from the MRI scan. So what happens is you can use it in two ways In real time. It can tell the doctor or the sonographer hey, go left, go right, zoom in there and start logging what it sees. Or if the sonographer just takes, let’s say, 10 MRI scans, before the MRI scans land on the doctor’s inbox, this thing has already looked at them, stack ranked them and said to the doctor you need to look at this one first.
Michael van Rooyen: 16:10
Wow.
Robert Joyce: 16:11
Especially when it comes to brain scans. The time is of the essence, clearly, with brain injuries. So they’re using it on brain scans to do this. And again, massive uplink bandwidth requirements. And again you can’t do that on copper, you need to be on fiber. Yeah, of course.
Michael van Rooyen: 16:26
And Broadlink bandwidth requirements. And again, you can’t do that on copper, you need to be on fiber. Yeah, of course, and then with your team collaboration there. If you were giving any advice to aspiring leaders in the tech and telecommunications sector, what would you advise to give them to make the most significant impact?
Robert Joyce: 16:39
Common sense would probably be one of the words. It’s funny, isn’t it? But common sense dictates that things will always change. Things will change. People will need more bandwidth. It’s quite easy to sit here and say, oh, surely we’ve got enough bandwidth, you know. But things will change. Just we can look at, we can look to the past and we can see that, of course, again, when I started out work, 9.6 kilobits per second was the high speed on mobile. Today, the speed record on mobile is 8 gigabits per second and on fiber, as I say, it’s 100 gig on our network and that’s something like at least a million times faster than so.
Robert Joyce: 17:13
We will always move forward and I think it’s just having that view that we will move forward. You need to think about what it is. You’re not always going to get it right, but you certainly should always look forward and at least have a, as we’ve got here a customer roadmap. We have a roadmap out to the next five years of what we think the customers will need. Yeah, the five-year out is a bit woolly because it’s device dependent. We’re betting in five years’ time that we are doing holographic telepresence, but the challenge is, when are we going to get the ARs as small as my glasses, because that’s when people are going to wear them and then use them. Yes, and so we’re reliant on technology catching. It’s a bit like when 2G was defined they didn’t have the chips to power the phones. Okay, and they said we’re banking that by the time we’ve defined this GSM spec, in two years’ time, technology will have evolved that we can get the chip small enough to go into a handset.
Robert Joyce: 18:03
Wow. And so this is where we’re at now. We know that AR is coming, we know that we’re going to have virtual telepresence, but we’re banking that the Apples, the Googles, the glass manufacturers get there, and I’m sure they will. I mean, isn’t it amazing that we carry this phone around today? Or your device? This is your mobile phone, it’s your music system, your mobile phone, it’s your music system. It’s your camera, it’s your video camera. It’s incredible. And it’s not changed a lot for a while, has it? The form factor of that has been probably the same for close on 10 years.
Michael van Rooyen: 18:31
It has actually 10 years now, yeah, and I thought about the shrinking and the expansion and then we have kind of stabilised it at the right volume.
Michael van Rooyen: 18:37
I remember people complained about this is not foldable originally and now we’re just used to it. And you touch on a good point there, which is the capability in this thing in your hand, is people still don’t actually appreciate how much capability it’s got. We were doing a wireless survey of a building and one of the guys is now using an iPad and using the LiDAR to just walk around and it actually draws the maps and everything for you. Which in the past, just thinking about the computing power and that alone and it’s in your hand, and you have this device that is so multi-universal power and that alone and it’s in your hand, and you have this device that is so multi-universal, it’s, it’s, it’s so revolutionary and and again, I don’t think we’ve seen seen all the, all the bits that can, that can happen with it. As we get near the end of your rob, just reflecting on your career, what are some of the most rewarding experiences that you’ve seen and what motivates you to continue driving this customer strategy in inbn?
Robert Joyce: 19:22
it has been a dare I say myself, an amazing career to career. To go from somebody telling me the mobile phones is where the party’s at the big bricks from going, from seeing the mechanical exchange, the Stroudshire exchange in my dad’s exchange, I mean again seeing that building. It was three floors of mechanical switch and they decided they were going to go digital. So they didn’t have any space because people were getting more, more and more lines so they built a floor on top. They put the digital switch on the whole floor upstairs and then they transitioned to the digital switch, ripped out all the the mechanical switches. He had three empty floors and the digital switch on the top. And then he took me back before he retired and he showed me the exchange and there’s just a box in the corner. Wow, that’s it. He said that is the exchange. Everything else, including the digital switch floor, is empty. But seeing for me, seeing technology move on from that to where we are today and then look into the future, yeah, as I say it’s, it’s really exciting.
Robert Joyce: 20:18
One of the other key jobs I did was obviously launching the first 5g network. That was really exciting. In the middle east I was working for a company called arido at the, and we spent the first 18 months going around all the vendors understanding where they were, who was ahead, who was not, because you often get different speeds of development depending on how much input they’ve had into the standard. We picked Huawei back then. So Huawei were chosen because they were ahead on the network side, on the 5G network side, so this is 2017. And they were also ahead on the CPE. So the modem that you put in the window to connect because there were no handsets, it was initially it was a 5G fixed wireless access modem, and we got those in May 2018, and we launched a network of 100 sites. Now 100 sites covers pretty much 60% of the population in Doha. Qatar is quite a small place, and so that was a highlight the 5G launch and we did a bit of flag waving. I think the Americans and the Koreans were a bit annoyed that we got there first, and so, if you look at the history books, we basically got overwritten on Wikipedia, got changed a few times, and the Saudis were also trying to claim. There’s a bit of a contest between the Saudis, the Bahrainis and the Qataris to launch first, but we definitely launched first and I’m quite proud of that and then another one rolling back to 3G when the iPhone came out. So you can imagine that you’ve got this network.
Robert Joyce: 21:36
O2 in the UK. It got an exclusive deal with the iPhone and the first iPhone was 2G. So it’s got all these fancy abilities but when it transfers data it transfers it on 2G, on Edge. Edge was like 2.5G, so all of a sudden their 2G network went into meltdown. And then when the 3G handset came out, then sure enough, they could do 3G. But the problem in Europe, the first 3G bands were in the 2100 megahertz band, so they didn’t quite cover the extent of 2G and especially in central London, deep indoors was only covered by 2G. So that meant not only were all the first generation iPhones hammering the 2G network, all the new iPhones, the 3G iPhones, 3gss also hammering the 2G network.
Robert Joyce: 22:17
I joined them in 2009, I think, and they were having a meltdown on the 3G network and it was like well, the laws of physics dictate that we need to get deep indoors. We’re never going to do that 2100. We need to take half the spectrum off the 2g network and repurpose it for 3g. Yes, but the 2g guy’s saying but we can’t do that because we’ll melt, we’ll melt down. It’s well, if you don’t do this, you’re gonna melt down anyway. You’re gonna melt down anyway. And so I convinced them to do this and it was a. It was a massive job, you know. You can imagine, we had to replan the whole of the gsm network overnight. But when we turned that u900 carrier on and we were really lucky that the iphone 4 included the u900 umts, we basically halved the traffic on the 2g network overnight and we we could stop investing in 2g at that point. So again, that was, you know, a key, key moment and I’m really proud of that.
Robert Joyce: 23:06
And then, rolling back further, back at Orange, I launched the first 3G network in the UK. That was well. First 3G trial network. We had three teams across Europe in France Telecom, we had a Nokia team in Bristol that’s where I was we had an Ericsson team in Germany, in Munich, and then we had the Octel team, french, in Paris, and we were all rushing to do the first 384 kilobits call, the first soft handover, the first voice and video call together. So again, that was quite interesting. We achieved a few, first with the Nokia, the network and then, before that, fujitsu.
Robert Joyce: 23:43
So yeah, it’s always been the next thing, and that’s where I’ve been lucky. I’ve always. My job is always to look at what comes next, and it really, it really keeps you on your toes.
Michael van Rooyen: 23:53
It doesn’t keep me awake at night, but it certainly makes my days in the office enjoyable absolutely keeps you motivated, and I touched on before we started recording about the evolution of our industry. Right, that’s just what you’ve been experiencing, right. Right, without giving away ages here over audio, but we’ve had this ability to ride these different waves of technology throughput and it doesn’t seem to be changing, right, it just continues to evolve. It’s very exciting and that’s an amazing history. As we wrap up, two last points quickly is is there a key takeaway message you want to leave with the listeners today around connectivity, the NBN and Australia’s digital future?
Robert Joyce: 24:26
Yeah, I mean, of course, Please check your internet speed. I think I would say Don’t be on a 3G speed at home If you’re used to 5G when you’re out and about, make sure that you’ve got at least 100 meg at home and I said before, you really will see a difference on streaming and, if you can look, see if you can get one of the free fiber upgrades that we’re offering. So again, talk to your RSP. As I say, fiber is faster and certainly more reliable. So once you’re on fiber, we shouldn’t be digging your garden for the next 100 or 50 years at least. So, beyond the fiber footprint, if you’re not in the fiber footprint, have a look at if you’re eligible for 5G fixed wireless access. We’re offering 400 megs on that service today and we’ve got a plan. We’ve already showcased a gigabit per second on the wireless network and there’s a roadmap to go all the way to 5 gig, at least with 5G fixed wireless.
Michael van Rooyen: 25:15
Yeah, great, it’ll be worth the investment is what you’re saying. Right To take the time, look what options are available and you won’t regret doing the step up right. Even might be a little slightly more expensive as well, but the benefit you’ll get is that yeah and you can always come back down.
Robert Joyce: 25:27
Of course, it’s not connectivity, just pure connectivity. There’s no lock-ins here in this market. So if you don’t like it six months later, you can drop back down. But let’s see See. If you like it, try it. You might like it Exactly right.
Michael van Rooyen: 25:39
Exactly right, and look my last. My last question, which is I ask all guests of the show, is you’ve touched on quite a bit about your career and history and evolutions you’ve been through, but this one’s maybe a slight deviation from that and you might have a different topic, but tell me about the most significant technology change or shift you’ve been involved with your career or you’ve seen.
Robert Joyce: 25:58
I think 4G really was the shift. I think 3G really took the internet on the road, made internet mobile. But 3G tried to be everything. 3g tried to do voice, it tried to do dial-up data and it tried to do packet data, whereas by the time 4G came, 4g it was just a data service. All they designed in that case was an IP shifting technology and the voice service was carried in IP packets. So for me, 4g was what maybe 3G should have been, but certainly we didn’t know it at the time. But when 4G came, you may remember the 4G iPhones. They were the ones that really made a difference. 3g iPhone was nice. It was a bit of a toy. It was novel with the interface. 4g smartphones was where all of a sudden you had a device that you could work all day on. You could do video calls, you could do browsing, you could do Teams calls, you could do Word documents. So for me, 4g was the exciting time.
Michael van Rooyen: 26:53
Fantastic, fantastic. Look, rob. I really appreciate the time with me today. It’s an amazing career in history and certainly a pleasure to have a chat to you about how you and your organization is helping Australia become a new digital economy.
Robert Joyce: 27:09
Thanks, Michael. All right, have a good day. Cheers.
